Empowering Women Through Pleasure

In this enlightening conversation, Dr. Jordin Wiggins, a naturopathic doctor and author, discusses the complexities of sexual health, particularly focusing on women's experiences with libido and sexual dysfunction. She emphasizes the importance of integrating both Eastern and Western medicine approaches, understanding the impact of personal traits on relationships, and the necessity of prioritizing self-care and pleasure. The dialogue also highlights the significance of communication in intimacy and the need for women to reclaim their desires and needs in relationships.

Takeaways

• Low libido is common and often underreported.
• Integrating Eastern and Western medicine can enhance sexual health.
• Super traits can hinder women's ability to prioritize their own pleasure.
• Self-care practices are essential for improving libido.
• Communication is key to enhancing intimacy in relationships.
• Women often feel pressure to please their partners over themselves.
• Exploring personal pleasure can lead to better sexual experiences.
• Daily activities can be infused with pleasure to enhance overall well-being.
• Women with autoimmune issues may struggle with over-functioning.
• Empowering women to express their needs is crucial for healthy relationships.

#podmatch

Get in touch with Dr. Jordin:

https://www.thepleasurecollective.com/

https://www.instagram.com/drjordinwiggins/

https://www.youtube.com/@thepleasurecollective

Episode is sponsored by Boston Scientific and EDCure. For more information click here:
www.EDCure.com/BTS 


Connect with Between the Sheets:

IG: @betweenthesheetswithdrz

www.betweenthesheetswithdrz.com

Email: podcastbetweenthesheets@gmail.com


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www.ReviveISH.com

Transcript

Stephanie Zwonitzer (00:01.101)
Hey guys, welcome back to Between the Sheets. We have another great episode in store for you today. I have Dr. Jordan Wiggins with us. She is a naturopathic doctor and author of The Pink Canary. She's also a host of a podcast called The Pleasure Principles, and it is a high rated podcast. Love that for her. She helps high achieving women have it all, but they're just struggling with sex and they need somebody to help them and she is the one that does it. So welcome, happy to have you.

Jordin (00:29.186)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat today.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (00:32.597)
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I always ask out of the gate because none of us grew up thinking that we were going to go into a sex field. So what got you into doing? Yes.

Jordin (00:41.398)
Yeah, thank you. I love that you started with that because it is and I was so embarrassed initially wanting to do this. Being a naturopathic doctor at a women's health clinic, it was very successful. I was in a business mastermind like for women in business and I wanted to grow my clinic and I wanted to write a book.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:05.069)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (01:08.002)
And I was sort of like whispering. kind of leaned into this group of us, like, I want to write a book about sexual dysfunction and low libido and women, almost, you know, ashamed of saying that as an educated woman with a successful business. And I was very ashamed, but then everyone else leaned in. And then the...

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:20.45)
Right?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:24.235)
it.

Jordin (01:31.246)
The coach the leader of the mastermind pulled me aside after and she's like you had the captive audience of every woman in that room like I don't think you realize how needed this is and So yes, I was very I'm live in a small town and was concerned that you know, I'm running

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:43.021)
Yeah.

Jordin (01:51.82)
to my grade two teacher at the grocery store and I just put out a podcast about blowjobs. So that's the, I didn't expect to be doing this.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:54.486)
Right.

Right, right, exactly, yes. Right, right, no, I mean, I was the same way. went in, I mean, I've always had a piqued interest in people finding pleasure and all of those things.

but I didn't really realize how much I sexual medicine until I was practicing urology. And I was like, urology isn't just about pee, it's also about sex, cool. And I just fell in love with it. And you're right, people are so curious and they so badly want to talk about it and want better sex lives.

but they don't really have great outlets to do that. And so I love when people like us can come and kind of make it more of a normal conversation, just like, let's talk about this, let's talk about this low libido because that's a problem. We want you to have great sex.

Jordin (02:45.686)
Yeah, and it's a that's sort of the pink canary in my book. That's the point is, if we have low libido, low desire, which is very common and very normalized. But that's the canary in the coal mine for me with overall health and vitality and

Stephanie Zwonitzer (03:06.583)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (03:10.766)
because we know that if we are stressed out, pumping out cortisol, we have hormone dysfunction, it's sort of this downward spiral. But if we are unwell and not optimally healthy, our body's prioritizing survival over reproduction and desire. So to me, the fact that I was having thousands of women sit at my desk and tell me, you know,

I don't know what's wrong with me. I don't want to have sex. I don't care if I ever have sex again. And they were telling me because they were concerned, because it was a concern for their partner, not because they were checked out. They didn't even care. So coming at it from that holistic kind of...

Stephanie Zwonitzer (03:51.715)
Sure.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (03:55.331)
Yeah.

Jordin (04:01.524)
approach it was, know, well what's going on here? Why is there so many women suffering from sexual dysfunction? And research says it's one in two, but I personally think that 50 % is very under reported. And yeah, that's kind of what started this whole journey into the sexual health exploration. Well that and I had

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:05.059)
Great.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:08.899)
Thank

Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:17.431)
I agree.

Jordin (04:30.744)
Hormone issues myself, when I started on birth control, I would get my period for three weeks every month. Yeah. Yeah, so I went on birth control at 19 and I bled 75 % of the time for a year. And my doctor's solution was just, just try this one, try a different, you know, and then they made me stay on each one for three months or something until, so I had those hormone issues and...

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:32.28)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:38.392)
my goodness, that's no fun for anyone.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:52.205)
Yeah.

Of course.

Jordin (05:00.71)
I had not one but two bartholin cysts and surgery. It was awful. One was when I was eight and a half months pregnant. Yeah, so it was. And then I delivered vaginally, yes.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (05:06.115)
Mmm.

Those are so painful.

terrible. That's terrible. And then you had to give birth? God. God.

Jordin (05:23.07)
But I was determined to do I was determined, you know the naturopath or in me. I need I can't have a C-section. No, Also knew that it was a big possibility after that procedure So I had

Stephanie Zwonitzer (05:24.609)
Yes. Right, right.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (05:36.437)
Yeah.

Jordin (05:43.414)
at a young age, scar tissue, pelvic pain, pain with sex because of that surgery. And I think because of some mental, emotional stuff from sexual abuse that I hadn't dealt with. And if we look at it from the Chinese medicine perspective, like stagnation.

unprocessed emotion, like those cysts in my vagina made a lot of sense. So that's kind of how I got here.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (06:07.192)
Yep.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (06:14.113)
Yeah, I really love when we can intertwine Eastern and Western medicine, right? Eastern medicine is not wrong, it's not bad, it's fabulous. Western medicine isn't all wrong, it isn't all bad, it's not fabulous. But there is a time and place for it. I mean, you needed to have that surgery to have your sister moved, right? Like sometimes people really do need birth control, like, you know.

Jordin (06:33.326)
Exactly. I did exactly. I did the sitz baths. I did every natural thing possible. And I needed surgery and the surgeon was fabulous. it's, yeah, time and medical intervention, right? I wanted to have

Stephanie Zwonitzer (06:44.215)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (06:53.303)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (06:58.584)
Great.

Jordin (07:00.406)
a home birth in a tub and due to my platelets dropping and the surgery that I had just had weeks prior to delivering, my midwives were like, you know, Jordan, this should be a hospital thing. And then it's, you know, so there is room for both. I love using both and sort of thinking with both sides of my...

Stephanie Zwonitzer (07:02.967)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (07:17.41)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (07:26.818)
Yeah.

Jordin (07:30.242)
brain.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (07:31.095)
Yes, I agree. And the more I've learned about the natural methods, the Eastern medicine, the different things and just stepping back from the way that I was taught medicine to look at the problem and fix the problem. That, okay, yeah, we need to fix the problem, but why is the problem there to begin with? And a lot of times in Western medicine, we don't go back that far.

We just throw the blood pressure medicine at you, throw the thyroid medicine at you, whatever. We don't try and balance your hormones. We don't try and take away your toxins. We don't do any of that, which really matters. And the more I've learned that, it's been phenomenal in changing the way that I approach care of patients and allowing them to...

try both sides of things, the natural methods that can help increase libido, can help get better erections, things like that. And then also, you know, I'll throw you some Viagra or Cialis if you need it.

Jordin (08:31.202)
Yeah, and you need, exactly. And it's, I love, because I started as, I started as a naturopath 12 years ago. So 12 years ago, even getting a traditionally trained physician, surgeon to talk to you was,

Stephanie Zwonitzer (08:45.059)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (08:54.595)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (08:56.448)
like impossible. And I know there's different, like different training, different standards, but I have two degrees, like same length of education, kind of like hour for hour as a family doctor, I can prescribe certain medications like my, because, you know, I think in some states, people can call themselves a naturopath or naturopathic doctor, but they don't.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (08:59.554)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (09:04.567)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (09:11.843)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (09:23.095)
Yeah. Yeah. Prescribing rates. Correct. Yeah. Yeah.

Jordin (09:25.826)
have, or the same education or whatever. So I would literally, I did a lot of like supportive naturopathic oncology, which is always around supporting my like patient's conventional plan.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (09:39.404)
Okay.

you

Stephanie Zwonitzer (09:46.68)
Sure.

Jordin (09:47.774)
So, you know, and it was a lot of breast cancer patients, there's a lot of female cancers, right? So then this even more so led into the low libido issues, right? Because if they'd had a mastectomy, then we have body image issues or they're that...

Stephanie Zwonitzer (09:54.349)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (09:58.549)
Sure. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (10:03.427)
you

Well, even just being on the estrogen blockers, then they'd have vaginal dryness, pelvic pain, feels like they're having razor blades in their vagina while they're having sex. Who wants to have sex for that?

Jordin (10:13.934)
Exactly. And I was lots of women with like early breast cancer in their 30s and 40s. And then if they're on serums and the and thankfully, all of that stuff is changing and updating. And we're not thinking that estrogen is the worst thing ever for these women when I know when it's

Stephanie Zwonitzer (10:32.341)
Yeah.

Thank God.

Jordin (10:40.672)
when we look at quality of life and the years, right? Like the years of them feeling like they had razor blades in their vaginas. And if that starts at 42, like that's, it's a problem, right? It's a problem for them, their physical well-being, emotional well-being, their relationships. So yeah, this is all kind of the layers that I was dealing with.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (10:49.09)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (10:52.961)
Right. That is a problem.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (11:06.486)
Yeah.

Jordin (11:08.598)
And initially when I wrote The Pink Canary, I was still approaching it while it was a holistic approach of looking at libido, because that's the thing. Even what we were taught in school was you look at things holistically, but it was still like algorithmic, sort of A plus B equals like, okay, let's look at

Stephanie Zwonitzer (11:17.324)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (11:32.727)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (11:36.28)
hormones, let's look at blood flow, let's look at nerves. Like we're looking at all the systems and mindset was a big part. So women's relationship to pleasure, their beliefs around feeling good, because a lot of these women with sexual dysfunction, found pleasure and feeling good was the last thing on their to do list.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (11:55.075)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (12:04.141)
Yeah.

Jordin (12:04.958)
everything else needed to get done first. So when you have a never-ending to-do list and you have a job and kids and a partner and maybe parents that you're caring for, there's just, there's too much. So they're in survival, pleasure centers are turned off.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (12:08.034)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (12:12.354)
Yep.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (12:18.839)
Yeah.

Right.

Jordin (12:29.004)
So they're like, don't touch me, get away from me. They're, you know, it's not even on their radar. So putting things in place from that perspective, self care, self pleasure, doing all these things, that's sort of what I thought was gonna change things and really move the needle. So I went into it thinking,

Stephanie Zwonitzer (12:31.917)
Great.

Jordin (12:58.39)
If we can get adequate testing, adequate hormone prescribing for these women that again, isn't necessarily algorithmic and then deal with the mindset piece. Amazing, I am gonna help women with their sexual dysfunction and everything's gonna be great. And it was for thousands of women.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (13:24.493)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (13:24.92)
But there was groups, this group that I couldn't help. And so now we're like fast forwarding over the last five years. And things would go well until they were stressed out or until their partner was disappointed in them or like, then they would go right back to square one.

So that's when I started looking into super traits. Sandra Brown did this research initially. I've modified it for the group of women that I work with, created a quiz. So if anyone wants to take it, I'll give you the link for it, because it's the most eye-opening thing ever for if you have super traits.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (13:57.163)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (14:04.664)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (14:12.203)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (14:18.071)
Okay.

Jordin (14:20.382)
super traits are these survival strategies that we learned as kids probably. And they make us very successful, very high achieving in certain areas of our life. But when it comes to sex, intimacy, connected relationships, it makes it a bit of a struggle. So I'll explain. But this was where

I learned that I can't even look at the woman with low libido holistically. I have to look at the system or the environment that created the relationship dynamic that she's in. So super traits are like being very empathetic. So we can feel so deeply for other people that

their pain becomes more important than our pain. And this is across the board. So this can be, our kid is struggling to tie their shoe. So it's just eat, so we just do it for them because it's easier. Or we want to ask our partner for something, help with something, can you drive the kids here? Or you know, you need more help around the house.

and but you know but he's had a really long day or a really hard week at work so I'm just gonna do this myself. So it's empathy, like really high empathy, hard work, so then as soon as anything goes wrong our instinct is fix. I'm gonna fix this. I'm gonna make this better for everyone. And we do it in career as well.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (15:52.29)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (15:58.435)
you

Stephanie Zwonitzer (16:03.959)
Yep. Yep.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (16:11.511)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (16:12.938)
So we're very good at our jobs, getting a lot of promotions, doing things really well, but it's always at the expense of ourself. And so it's also loyalty, forgiveness, and tolerance. So when you have these set of traits, it really makes great sex and connected relationships

Stephanie Zwonitzer (16:22.339)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (16:28.214)
Okay.

Jordin (16:42.528)
almost impossible until we work on healing those super traits, then pleasure becomes a lot easier. And if you think about it, fundamentally, all of those traits means that we are erasing ourselves and taking ourselves out of the equation. And then we can feel resentful and like, I'm doing so much, like, why is nobody giving back to me?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (16:43.907)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (16:48.663)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (17:00.566)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jordin (17:11.982)
or you know, if I stop doing all this work, who's gonna do it? But we're by removing ourselves and putting the other person's needs and wants more important than how can we have intimacy if we're not in the equation? And when it comes to sex, women with super traits have very

performative sex or sex that's very focused on their partner. So, and pleasing their partner, which that's pleasurable to, right? Giving pleasure to somebody gives me pleasure because I love that person. I want them to feel good. So that makes sense. That's arousing for me. But this whole other...

Stephanie Zwonitzer (17:38.531)
you

Stephanie Zwonitzer (17:47.725)
Sure.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (17:53.079)
Right.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (17:59.021)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (18:03.105)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (18:06.412)
piece of sex, which is where I receive pleasure for me. Women with super traits, they don't know what that's like. They can't even be present enough in their bodies in a regulated parasympathetic nervous system state to

Stephanie Zwonitzer (18:17.376)
Okay.

Jordin (18:27.85)
receive and be present with that kind of sensation. So they literally realized their whole lives and this was me. yeah, yes. And like, partners didn't have any complaints, but then eventually you just end up you're kind of like, yeah, like all

Stephanie Zwonitzer (18:32.949)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (18:40.183)
That's usually how we find what we're good at, right? It's us.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (18:53.249)
What me?

Jordin (18:55.538)
But I didn't even know that I was taking myself out of the equation.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (18:58.658)
Yeah.

Sure.

Jordin (19:04.588)
So that's kind of where we're at today.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (19:08.501)
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, it makes so much sense. you know, as you're talking about the empath, I've always been an empath and like to the point where I can't even watch like physical fights on TV because I hurt inside. Now I can watch more movie after more movie because gun violence doesn't bother me. But physical hitting each other, watching a fight, I can't do it. It physically hurts me. I will cry at a Hallmark commercial because someone in that Hallmark commercial is crying.

but I have learned to self-regulate in real relationships that people actually exist and aren't on a TV. For some reason, I can't transfer that to the TV yet, but I have gotten better at associating with my partner and allowing my own pleasure and things like that. How do you help people go from, make that shift into also caring about themselves?

Jordin (20:03.704)
So the first piece is the awareness and the beliefs. We kind of need to understand that these amazing traits and the traits that really do make us exceptional and responsible in a person that somebody can count on does not make us good at sex and relationships. So we have to have that

first and just by having that awareness I find people's shoulders can kind of soften and they can go because they've been trying in couples therapy and sex therapy and listening to podcasts and getting their hormones checked and wondering what's wrong with them but that's like if you have super traits we need a different approach

Stephanie Zwonitzer (20:46.337)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (20:52.429)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (20:57.774)
because what therapy teaches, oftentimes couples therapy makes it worse because the person with super traits is the high achiever, the overachiever, and generally their partner is the under functioner, the one not showing up, not doing the work.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (21:04.867)
Mm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (21:11.523)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (21:17.217)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (21:21.182)
when you go to therapy to fix the issue, and therapy doesn't address that there's a significant power imbalance there, then the solutions are usually like, have a date night, or, you know, put sex on the calendar. And then well, who's the one doing more? The who's homework does that not become and it sort of worsens this dynamic. So

Stephanie Zwonitzer (21:29.623)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (21:44.909)
Sure.

Jordin (21:51.636)
the awareness is key because even so say there's a disagreement and you have super traits because you have empathy because you're tolerant because you're forgiving because you're loyal you you give too many chances or too many benefits of the doubt sometimes and and then but then you don't feel met and safe and supported all of the things that are required

Stephanie Zwonitzer (21:55.939)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (22:09.603)
Yes.

Jordin (22:18.99)
for us to relax and open sexually. So, and we're not even giving our partners the chance sometimes. And that's the scary part, because if we are really open and vulnerable, then they might not meet our needs. So that's where sort of the second part comes in, and this is what.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (22:20.707)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (22:26.73)
Tch.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (22:34.733)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (22:42.478)
Contra really helps me teach my clients is being present with high sensation Because and that's This is so this is this is the part that I'm we don't love necessarily Because being present with high sensation means pleasure and pain and those are both different same They're both the

Stephanie Zwonitzer (22:46.913)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (22:51.363)
Tell me more about that.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (23:00.707)
Okay.

Jordin (23:11.63)
The sensation was it's different sides of the same coin so to our bodies our nervous system if there's a What what happens during arousal?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (23:17.059)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (23:20.642)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (23:27.064)
Mm.

Jordin (23:27.704)
heart rate increases, our rest, like our breathing rate increases, our pupils dilate, it's all the same physiologic things as a like arousal and stress response. So

Stephanie Zwonitzer (23:32.963)
You

Stephanie Zwonitzer (23:41.88)
Yeah.

Jordin (23:46.046)
when we have super traits, so much of what we do every day is to not feel uncomfortable or not have anyone around us that we love feel uncomfortable. So that next big step is really getting present with sensation. And there's some fun stuff like present with sensation when it comes to pleasure means better.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (23:54.883)
Mm.

Jordin (24:12.99)
orgasms in like just sex, touch life feeling better in general, which at that part is awesome. And then but it also means being present with sensation and that's, you know, being okay that somebody's uncomfortable that you said no, or that doesn't work for me or you are

Stephanie Zwonitzer (24:14.039)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (24:19.308)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (24:34.755)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jordin (24:40.918)
vulnerably making an ask of your partner, and you're not asking for crumbs or like, you know, you're not shrinking the ass because you don't think he can do the big thing. But really, our bodies are smart, like your, your pelvic floor and your nervous system knows that you don't feel safe and supported. But we have to do the work to be able to even figure out what we desire, ask for it.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (24:44.269)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (24:51.65)
Right.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (25:01.347)
Hmm.

Jordin (25:10.912)
and receive it.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (25:12.419)
And that's very tough. think especially for women, it's very tough for us to put ourselves first above our kids, above our partner, above our career, to even allow ourselves to explore what the heck we want and what the heck feels good. I like to suggest to my patients to take time alone.

Kids aren't in the house, you're not on a time schedule, something where you can just really truly enjoy being alone and try different sensations, different, know, silk versus rough versus cold versus hot, like different things and see what feels good, what pressure do you like, what, and different parts of your body and all these things and take the time to really explore that and allow yourself to start to learn what feels good, whatever.

when you're in one of those safe environments. You're able to deep breathe, you're able to unclench and release your pelvic floor, right? All of these things where you can just really focus on yourself and give yourself permission to explore your pleasure, whether that's a five minutes or an hour.

Jordin (26:24.29)
And we probably need an hour if we have super traits because just to even drop in and land in our bodies and really feel the sensation to get into that parasympathetic nervous system state and have those centers in our brain that are receptive to pleasure to turn on. that's so pleasure practices. That's what I

Stephanie Zwonitzer (26:26.625)
Yeah. Yes.

Jordin (26:54.58)
would call a pleasure practice, and I love those in and out of the bedroom, that exploration is key because we've never really been given permission to learn. Not that we need permission, but we feel like we do. We learned male-centered sex in heterosexual relationships, and that's why the orgasm gap.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (26:55.532)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (27:09.74)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (27:13.773)
Bye.

Jordin (27:17.076)
exists and any dismal sex education that we had was on reproduction, which is penis and vagina equals a baby. But we didn't learn to explore and we didn't learn what else is, is out there. So heterosexual couples are at a massive disadvantage to not explore.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (27:22.029)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (27:26.497)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (27:32.749)
Right.

Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (27:43.703)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (27:44.832)
And when you're very focused, right, on pleasing and the other person, you don't know what your pleasure is. So exploring that's key. Even trying to bring pleasure into your every day.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (28:02.979)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (28:03.668)
So simple, simple things like if you're out for a walk, feeling the sun on your skin, looking at the leaves on a tree. When you're showering, actually taking time to smell the shampoo, feel yourself right like massage your shampoo in while you know when you're at the hairdresser and it feels so good.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (28:23.713)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (28:28.723)
Mm-hmm. so good. God. Yeah. Right.

Jordin (28:32.278)
And then, and then when we're showering, we're just, you know, rushing through the steps to, but it can really be the daily things you do, drinking your coffee, like you can bring pleasure into everything that you do and start making that a habit. And then, and these are the harder ones. And the harder ones for women with super traits is like centering

Stephanie Zwonitzer (28:43.245)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jordin (29:00.942)
your pleasure, which means not anyone else's and we'll give some examples of that. So making a dinner that you want to make and not giving a shit who complains about it because

Stephanie Zwonitzer (29:02.531)
Mmm, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (29:12.278)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (29:17.681)
Yes. That was the first thing that popped into my mind when you said that. I like, I am going to say what I want for dinner and I'm going to mean it and we're going to do that.

Jordin (29:28.712)
Exactly. And that's so and I saw that, right? So there's like the clinical side of what I do. And then there's the coaching side. And all have women with super traits, and they are so burnt out. And then they then they have a health issue. So, you know, maybe it is IBS or an autoimmune disease.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (29:37.25)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (29:57.472)
And lots of women with autoimmune diseases have super traits. I've been testing that now with my patients. Like, here, can you take this quiz and just see how high you rank on this?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (30:01.805)
Interesting. Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (30:07.883)
Yeah.

That's interesting. I'm trying to figure out what that correlation would be. Do you think it's because we're so unregulated while we're trying to please everybody and take care of everybody else that our body just goes into this terrible state? Yeah, that's so interesting.

Jordin (30:22.19)
Yeah, we live in fight or flight. We live with a dysregulated nervous system and the inflammatory cascades and the cortisol dysfunction and hormone imbalances. And that's why I think, right. And that's why I think women are way more likely, I can't remember what the stat is, but to get diagnosed with an autoimmune disease in men.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (30:32.586)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, which is not something traditional medicine looks at.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (30:48.951)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, significantly higher than men. Yeah.

Jordin (30:53.14)
Yeah. Yeah. we just men are taught to center themselves and their pleasure and their needs. And this is just like patriarchal culture. So if they haven't done any work around that, and that's what's so funny is I've now I'm getting more men listening to my podcast and reaching out and they're like,

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:04.28)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:15.745)
Yeah.

Jordin (31:17.134)
Okay, well, wait a second. Like, how do I, what can I do to help? Like, they want to change it, which is awesome. And generally, it's just like a two hour session where I unload on them of the ways that they just inherently are taught to center themselves. And we are inherently taught to center men and please men and make sure they have all their needs met.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:21.378)
Yeah.

Sure.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:36.472)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:42.455)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:45.859)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (31:47.182)
And yeah, it's a recipe to destroy intimacy. And then when we learn to center pleasure as a unit, then the sex gets really good and everything gets really good because it's like, it's this mutual give and take. So back to our pleasure centered practices. And my point was,

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:51.37)
Absolutely.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:57.261)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (32:03.532)
Yeah.

Jordin (32:11.616)
So a woman would have an issue and eating a modified diet would benefit her. So say, you know, she has an autoimmune disease and taking gluten out of her diet, which I'm not recommending. Like I do think that this is way overdone a lot, but I have certain patients that...

Stephanie Zwonitzer (32:18.744)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (32:30.071)
Yeah.

Jordin (32:33.694)
their joint pain will completely go away if they avoid gluten. And for some patients, it makes no difference. this is individualized. But for that patient, her day to day life is so much better. And then she's not needing NSAIDs. then like, it's just, it's better for her. But then it becomes, my goodness, but it's so much work because now I'm making three meals.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (32:40.504)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (32:43.81)
Yes.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (32:50.487)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (32:54.509)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (33:05.153)
Yeah.

Jordin (33:05.518)
And we think we have to. And then that's what I define over functioning as you are doing something that someone else could do themselves. So I'm like, so, okay, so are your children's, are they bedridden? Are they ill? Like, can they not help and contribute? Right?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (33:09.602)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (33:18.339)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (33:26.231)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Jordin (33:31.158)
So we just think it's our job. We think it's our role. It's been conditioned into us. having the tools, the tools as in the ability to decide what you want for dinner, what would make you really happy, what to communicate that.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (33:34.403)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (33:59.086)
and to actually like follow through and receive it is life-changing and then you feel safe and your body feels like you're gonna take care of it and protect it and it's

Stephanie Zwonitzer (34:15.597)
Yeah, and it allows you to have that libido again, right? Like you have figured out your desires, you feel pleasure again. Hopefully we've gotten the razor blades out of the vagina with some creams and some hormones and things like that, right? Like we gotta make you actually have comfortable sex. But you know, I think a lot of times that low libido can...

Jordin (34:28.628)
Yeah, we need, yes, like that, yes. Yep.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (34:43.827)
with and how and all these things that who wants to have sex when it's not good? Who wants to have sex when it's only about your partner? Nobody. So if we can get the physical feeling better having sex done, then this emotional regulation that you're talking about and feeling this safety and feeling

pleasure throughout our day. One of my favorite things is taking my sip of coffee and truly enjoying it instead of just drinking it. Because I honestly don't really even care about the caffeine in my coffee. I genuinely love drinking my warm cup of coffee with my creamer in the morning. It brings me pleasure. But I had to actually like sit down and figure that out, right? And I have to take that moment every morning, not just going through the motions of this is just what I do and I don't think about it, but actually stopping when I take that first sip of coffee and being like,

yeah, this is good. I love this. I think once we kind of start to figure all of those things out, the desire to have more of it, aka libido for sex, becomes stronger. You want to do it more because now it feels good. It's fun. That connection with your partner is there more often, all of that. So, you know, some of the libido we have to fix with hormones and things like that, but some of it just comes from figuring out how to have good sex.

Jordin (36:03.102)
Exactly. Yeah, very, I couldn't agree more. And going through that process, but it means we're going to disappoint people, right? or, and so it's the same asking or saying, this is what I want for dinner tonight, or we're going to watch a show that I want to watch. Because when do we ever watch shows that we want to watch?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (36:04.321)
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (36:14.399)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, which is so tough.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (36:25.207)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (36:28.611)
Right. Right. After everybody else is in bed and we can catch up on something, sure.

Jordin (36:30.08)
in the household, right? It's what

But that's how we shrink ourselves and we shrink our desires. It's like at the end of the day when we're already exhausted and that's, we need to flip it, right? It needs to be pleasure first and we need to develop that skillset for other people to be okay with it. Because so many women are, even when they figure out what they desire or like I do,

Stephanie Zwonitzer (36:46.753)
Yes.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:02.135)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (37:03.99)
retreats and we've learned like new things or things that they do want to try. And if I'm teaching things that are for men's pleasure, they're like all in there like when's my flight home? I want to try this. But when it comes to things for their pleasure, they're like I can see their eyes light up. They're excited during the workshop. They're thinking about okay, this, like I want to go home and explore this. But like

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:10.487)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:16.439)
Yeah.

Jordin (37:33.784)
How do I ask or how do I tell my, because again, we're centering him and his feelings and I don't want to hurt him or his ego. But it's like, he wants you to have more or he should.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:39.767)
Right?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:45.144)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:50.653)
Yeah, if he's a good partner.

Jordin (37:51.018)
want you. If he's a good partner and is not just using your body, we call it masturbating with a vagina when it's just like for his pleasure and there's no focus on her. Well, and then sometimes men are shocked to learn that they are terrible at sex.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (38:05.603)
Basically. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (38:11.284)
Absolutely.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (38:19.618)
Yeah.

Jordin (38:20.526)
You know, because she's been faking it because she has empathy and doesn't want to hurt him and all of those things, but that's not sex that she's gonna desire to have. That's not sex that it's gonna be like, I can't wait until work is done or until we're alone next. she, she that's, she's going through the motions just to get it done, essentially.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (38:22.658)
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (38:30.915)
Right, right.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (38:35.959)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (38:39.767)
Great.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (38:44.035)
Exactly, Yes, and we don't want that. I tell women all the time, do not fake it, because you're reinforcing what you don't like.

Jordin (38:55.094)
Yeah, exactly. So developing that tolerance to feel is, and to be present with high sensation, that is so important. And we're training that muscle, whether we think about it or not, by enjoying the coffee, by having that hour to explore what kind of touch you like.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (39:07.138)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (39:17.461)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (39:22.83)
And none of those things were ever the problem, but the problem for women with super traits is when it becomes asking for it and receiving it, like when we're really putting it into action because we're so quick to default to fixing, default to making everyone else comfortable, that kind of thing. So by training our nervous systems to be present with sensation, and a lot of times that means

Stephanie Zwonitzer (39:33.773)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (39:44.205)
Yeah.

Jordin (39:52.102)
people's be their feelings and their discomfort is their responsibility. Especially when we've been over functioning so much in accepting crumbs and putting our pleasure last on the to-do list. so if we're gonna all of a sudden take up space and start requiring more from those around us, there's gonna be some turbulence in there.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (39:57.986)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (40:07.863)
Right.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (40:14.006)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (40:18.561)
Right. So how do you kind of help women navigate that conversation? They've spent this time working on themselves. They're like, okay, I really want to try this or I really don't want him doing that anymore or whatever. I feel it. I know it. This is what I want. Now I got to go have that conversation.

Jordin (40:38.705)
We're practicing it in our groups and it's meditation, breath work, because literally to deal with that level of sensation when you have super traits and you feel like you're gonna disappoint someone, it feels like you're gonna die, or it did for me and for most of my clients. I can't.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (40:40.812)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (41:00.983)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jordin (41:05.646)
tell my kids to make their own dinner. I can't tell my husband he's never made me orgasm. I've been faking it for years. It feels so emotionally uncomfortable that we literally are doing workshops and practicing it and scripting it. And because to know it logically,

Stephanie Zwonitzer (41:18.733)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (41:25.624)
Yeah.

Jordin (41:31.71)
or listening to this podcast or you and I are sitting here chatting and you know maybe I've thought of something like you know what I'm really over functioning in this area and I need help or I need him to take the kids so that I can have that time to explore and not be interrupted.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (41:33.633)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (41:41.666)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (41:48.419)
Hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (41:55.308)
Yeah.

Jordin (41:57.8)
but then, you know, maybe there's some grumbling or whatever. I don't know. But again, when we've practiced and, and I just find being witnessed in community of women, witnessed in that safe space, then it's more actionable. And because

Stephanie Zwonitzer (42:06.915)
you

Jordin (42:28.174)
we're sort of in fight or flight, we're sort of in that activated state when we're uncomfortable, where, you know, it's our it's not our cortex, our frontal lobe doing the thinking at that point, it's our brainstem, where we are more reactive. So it's honestly like doing drills or training a muscle.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (42:31.01)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (42:35.011)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (42:43.0)
Great.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (42:47.649)
Mm-hmm.

Jordin (42:55.112)
So doing that together makes it a lot easier to do it when you're activated. And you know, how do we we don't we don't even learn how to fight or argue or what to do. And no, we don't learn any of these repair skills, like none of it. And it's often when we're when we are triggered. So

Stephanie Zwonitzer (43:02.787)
Sure.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (43:10.166)
No!

Stephanie Zwonitzer (43:15.363)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (43:22.593)
Yeah, yeah, I'm a huge proponent of sending people to therapy, doing self-help things, different conferences, whatever it might be, because you're right, we weren't taught these things. We were taught math and social studies and stuff, but we weren't taught relationships and how to improve them or correct them or whatever. And it's very scary.

when you don't know how to do it and learning those tools of safe communication and working through your own issues first so that you're ready to and practicing and having somebody ask you crazy questions or confront you so that you are prepared for whatever might come with your partner, I think is so invaluable.

Jordin (44:04.906)
Yeah, because we stop, you know, we have the desire, we think about it. And I can see like, my client wants whatever it is, it lights her up. And instead of even inviting the people around her into that reality, she's already like, no, I can't. Like she even before because she's got this story of, well, he's gonna say this.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (44:06.711)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (44:24.984)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Great.

Jordin (44:34.848)
And a lot of times she is right. Like, that's the thing about super traits is like, she's probably right that he will. But how in it, I don't know, I like, I don't want to call it a game, but it's kind it's a fun game. It's like verbal self-defense. And how do we, how do we move through that? And if it's

Stephanie Zwonitzer (44:37.153)
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (44:55.521)
Yeah.

Jordin (45:04.64)
We haven't been taught healthy ways to do it. So I do a ton of those workshops because we need that practice in real time. then by, you know, we've already role played it. We've already in sometimes I'm even doing it with private clients. So she says her part. I say what he she thinks he's going to say and we go through it and.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (45:07.469)
Right, right.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (45:12.151)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (45:21.027)
Hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (45:27.383)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jordin (45:33.054)
even learning those scripts, those they're kind of like patriarchal roles that exist and there's four things of like usually ways that these conversations can go. So once she sees those, once she's practiced those, she's like, she's ready.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (45:39.095)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (45:50.883)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (45:55.073)
Yeah, she's ready. That's amazing. I love that. And I love, you know, your approach to everything and really getting to the root of it and allowing women to really rise to the occasion and learn themselves and learn these communication tools. How can people find you? How can they work with you?

Jordin (46:14.176)
I my podcast, the pleasure principles podcast is a great place to keep learning more. I'm on Instagram at Dr. Jordan Wiggins. And I highly recommend taking that super trade quiz if you think you have them. There's trainings that I will I'll send to you after and

you'll have all my, you'll have my contact if you take that quiz.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (46:44.835)
Perfect. we'll put those links in the show notes as well. Jennifer, I apologize. Jordan, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And you have just been such a wealth of knowledge. I love this conversation. It's definitely one that women need to have and need to really look into and research themselves and figure out where they're at and where they can go. I love it. Thank you so much for being here.

Jordin (46:53.966)
Thank you so much.

Jordin (47:12.28)
Thank you so much for having me.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (47:14.363)
Absolutely. All right, everybody, don't forget to check us out at reviveish.com for all your hormone and sexual health needs where you can work with me. And as always, have fun between the sheets.