Infidelity: Recovering and Regaining Intimacy

In this episode of Between the Sheets, host Stephanie Zwonitzer and licensed marriage and family therapist Kayla Crane delve into the complex topic of infidelity. They discuss the emotional impact of infidelity on relationships, the journey of healing, and the importance of rebuilding trust and intimacy. Kayla shares her insights on how to navigate the aftermath of infidelity, emphasizing the need for self-reflection and communication. The conversation also touches on practical strategies for preventing future infidelity and fostering a healthier relationship dynamic.

takeaways

• Infidelity is a common issue that affects many relationships.
• Healing from infidelity requires addressing underlying beliefs formed in childhood.
• Rebuilding trust is a gradual process that involves small, consistent actions.
• It's essential to work through the trauma of infidelity before moving forward.
• Writing letters can help express feelings that are hard to communicate in person.
• Intimacy can be rebuilt through small gestures and gradual steps.
• Self-reflection is crucial in understanding the reasons behind infidelity.
• Preventing future infidelity involves recognizing unmet needs in the relationship.
• Therapy can provide a safe space to explore feelings and experiences.
• Communication is key to navigating the complexities of infidelity.
• #podmatch

Get in Touch with Kayla:

https://www.facebook.com/share/14MaLfSMpgd/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.instagram.com/southdenvertherapy?igsh=MWh3aXRjeGswZWdqeg%3D%3D&utm_source=qr

https://www.southdenvertherapy.com/

Episode is sponsored by Boston Scientific and EDCure. For more information click here:
www.EDCure.com/BTS 

Connect with Between the Sheets:

IG: @betweenthesheetswithdrz

www.betweenthesheetswithdrz.com

Email: podcastbetweenthesheets@gmail.com


Work with Dr. Stephanie:

www.ReviveISH.com

Transcript

Stephanie Zwonitzer (00:01.57)
Hey guys, welcome back to Between the Sheets. We are gonna get into a topic we haven't covered yet on this podcast. We're gonna get into some infidelity, some relationship things, and kind of overall recovering from issues in relationships. So we have Kayla Crane here today. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist in Denver, Colorado, and she specializes in relationships and trauma and has a big focus on infidelity and healing relationships. So welcome, Kayla.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (00:28.991)
Thanks for having me.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (00:30.358)
Yeah, absolutely. So excited to have you here. We really haven't covered this topic. And I don't know about you and what the statistics actually are, but I have certainly had infidelity in relationships in the past. And so I feel like it touches a lot of people. I think this is a great topic to start with.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (00:47.765)
Yeah, almost everyone has been impacted by infidelity, whether it's they've experienced it themselves or a family member or a friend. Almost everyone will have had some kind of connection to infidelity.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:00.749)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:04.598)
Yeah. And how did you get into that type of counseling? Was there a personal situation that kind of made you more interested in doing that or just that it was just a really unique way to be involved in people's lives?

Kayla Crane, LMFT (01:18.855)
So I've experienced it in past relationships, so I can definitely relate to it. Also, it comes up a lot in couples I've worked with. And so I didn't feel like I had a really solid foundation on how to work with it. I had general stuff. But I really wanted to, so I didn't feel like I was effective as I wanted to be.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:31.073)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:46.306)
Mm-hmm.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (01:48.213)
Sometimes even the work we would do would leave a little bit of like some holes. And unfortunately when that's the case, it'll keep showing up. And so I went and got trained in something called systematic affair recovery therapy. And it's really comprehensive. It kind of very start to very finish. Beginning of when you're born up until throughout the infidelity and where the relationship is today. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:57.634)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (02:03.704)
Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (02:12.087)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (02:16.237)
That's amazing. That's really cool. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a difficult thing to recover from if you're able to, if you choose to even try. But I think there are some really great relationships out there that deserve that second chance. So are people finding you right away after infidelity? Are they finding you way down the road? How's that work?

Kayla Crane, LMFT (02:39.712)
Yeah, both. So I'll work with people that find me. My website talks about that I specialize in infidelity and stuff like that. People in the community know that I do specialize in that. And also, people have

had it 15 years ago or 20 years ago and there still hasn't been repair or complete repair. And so like I said, even if they've done a ton of work, if there's still any questions, it's incredibly difficult to move past it because there's always kind of something living there. And so I do have people that have come and they said, we've done so much work, but not.

specifically around infidelity, that's not uncommon either, but they'll come and they'll like, I don't really want to talk about it that much, we just want to look forward. And I try to, you know, point out that that's incredibly difficult to do. And it's not, it could frankly be kind of a waste of time to do therapy and have this almost like elephant in the room of like, we're just not going to touch that and try to work on everything around it.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:01.72)
Sure.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (04:06.56)
like, well, we kind of got it, you know? And so it is really important to work on and when people have had experiences, even if they've gone through a ton of couples therapy, if they haven't really, really sorted that out, it's going to probably keep coming up.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:10.349)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:25.718)
Yeah, I mean, I know just my own personal work through relationships and whether that included an infidelity relationship or not, know, reflection after the fact, what led to that breakup? What were the things? And sometimes it's great, like, yes, you set your boundaries, they didn't stick to them. Cool, you're done.

And other times it's like, well, you know, I probably didn't give that much effort because I was in grad school or I was this or I was that. And learning that self-reflection piece to be able to adjust for the future, whether that's a different relationship or continuing that current relationship, it makes a huge difference in your ability to have quality in your relationships, I think.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (05:10.398)
Yeah, it definitely does. Infidelity is a trauma that you experience. And traumas create beliefs inside of you or reinforce beliefs from childhood. And so that's why this model is so, I find it so important because we do start at childhood because that's where a lot of the beliefs that you have are formed. And then when you experience infidelity,

Then if you're the hurt partner, all those beliefs are going to get really reinforced or sometimes new beliefs will get reinforced. And so it's not uncommon for somebody to feel not good enough for their partner after infidelity. And so according to your upbringing, if that showed up a lot, then that's gonna be what's showing up here. If somebody, their upbringing, they didn't feel loved, then

experiencing their partner cheat on them, it's going to make them not feel loved. And so whatever those beliefs are, they're going to get so much more reinforced in your relationship. And so those have to be worked on because then if, you know, going through relationships not feeling good enough or not feeling loved, a lot of that can just be your own thing. Obviously infidelity is very clearly something that you experience.

But the way, the lens you see it through, that comes through from your own stuff. And so that's really important to be able to work on and see, you know, especially if you go forward to a healthy relationship where there was no infidelity, it's important to work through that, okay, because that's true that I feel not loved and that is real.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (06:38.604)
Yeah.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (07:05.85)
And it's also not a fact that my partner doesn't love me. And so that's really important work to do because if you don't separate the two, then there's a lot of conflict. know, it's why don't you love me? Why don't you love me? Versus they can love me and this could be something that I'm dealing with that it's just not landing because it won't until I process that.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (07:30.638)
Sure. Are there also things in childhood that would lead someone to be more likely to be the cheater, to create the infidelity?

Kayla Crane, LMFT (07:43.232)
Yeah, almost similarly, you know, if they are not feeling loved in their relationship and they can't recognize that this could be a me thing, they might be looking at their partner and saying, you're not showing me love. I don't feel love from you. So maybe I'll find it somewhere else. Likely they're still not going to find it somewhere else until they do their own work. But

Recognize they can be looking at it as my partner is not doing this for me and this for me And so I need to go find somebody who is giving that to me without recognizing wait a second maybe I can work on something and It's more of a little bit of a me thing, you know and so I need to kind of change my perspective and recognize that I do deserve love or whatever it is and take that in

Stephanie Zwonitzer (08:37.986)
Yeah, yeah. So where do you start with couples when they come in and they're like, you know, this event happened, this affair happened, whatever it was, one time, long term, whatever, and they want to stay together. They're like, all right, we are committed. That was what it was, but let's, you know, we want to move forward. I know you said you have to look backwards. So where do you start with them when they come in first appointment?

Kayla Crane, LMFT (09:05.863)
Yeah, that's a good question. So the very first thing I do is through this model, we don't even get to the story of the infidelity until a few sessions because we first go through their upbringing, then we go through every relationship they've had in the past, then we go through their entire relationship, then at the point of discovery, that's where that story stops and then we go back into the story of the infidelity.

Usually, sometimes we have to make some exceptions for whatever reason and work a little bit different way. But the first thing I do when people come in even before then is I ask them to develop what's called reassuring behaviors. And so that can be anything. sometimes the involved partner will get a little frustrated and say, I don't.

Why are they wanna check my phone? Not why, but I don't want them to check my phone or something like that. And so I use this analogy of imagine trust is a brick wall. And right now all the bricks are on the ground. And so we need to start building that backup. every time, one of them reassuring behaviors is I want to look on my phone and see that, like I wanna see your location.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (10:05.901)
Yeah.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (10:31.301)
and check that you are where you say you're gonna be. We put boundaries around it so that they're not living on their phone, but maybe two random times throughout the day. If you reframe that as every single time my partner looks and I am where they expect me to be, that's another brick in the wall. This is actually a really great opportunity to continue building trust in these smaller ways that obviously there's big picture as well.

But instead of looking at it as a frustrating thing, looking at it as, wow, this is really helpful. And so I encourage people to come up with as many opportunities as possible to keep putting bricks in the wall. So get really creative. Whatever you think would work. Even just any kind of small agreement, bigger agreement. Just more and more opportunities to do that.

at step one, it gives them a little bit of a sense of hope usually. Like, okay, these are doable. The only thing that needs to be done isn't to say, okay, I trust you again because we've talked about the infidelity. Because that's not, that seems like a really big thing. Yeah, exactly. And so here's some steps we can take towards that. That can, I think, feel like.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (11:38.68)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (11:49.55)
It's a big jump.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (11:57.566)
a little bit more hopeful that, okay, we've got something to move towards where we want to be right now.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (12:07.022)
that you could probably also put this in other situations too, like not necessarily infidelity of cheating on you with someone else sexually or emotionally, but also you were gambling behind my back. You went and did something else that wasn't agreed upon in that relationship. So I love that we're focusing today on infidelity, but you could apply these principles to other situations as well.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (12:35.229)
Yeah, betrayal in general, right? That's kind of what betrayal is not just, you know, having a relationship with someone else. It's anything, any secrets that are kept from the other person, all of those things like break that brick wall down, you know? And so, yeah, in any case, you need to find opportunities. And again, that makes it a little more like doable, like, okay, it's not.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (12:37.805)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (12:52.631)
Yeah.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (13:04.425)
hopeless, like, well, how do I regain this trust? it actually, there are steps to be taken that are achievable.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (13:12.301)
Yeah.

Do you generally suggest if people were in a relationship, it wasn't just like a drunken one night stand at the bar, you don't even know who it was kind of thing, changing phone numbers, email addresses, things like that to increase confidence that they're not still communicating with that person? Or does that not really work because we can still Google each other and find things?

Kayla Crane, LMFT (13:34.943)
So it's different for everyone, you know, and so some people will say this will help me feel better. Some people will say you can figure something else out that's pointless. And so it's totally different for everyone depending on just who you are, what feels right. And so that's why it's what does work for you. And some people it's really hard because they'll say nothing will help because I keep thinking there ways around it.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (13:42.36)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (13:46.872)
Yeah.

Okay.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (14:04.711)
And so that's where you look into more of the not necessarily like removing, like you kind of look elsewhere, like I said, just following agreements in other places in life. Like that can be a little bit more, let's look there rather than I need to trust that they're never speaking to their fair partner again, which we've got to get there, but that's a really big ask right in the beginning.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (14:05.101)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (14:28.28)
Yeah. Right.

Sure, absolutely. You know, my friends and I have an ongoing joke that when we see a couple profile on Facebook or something like, who cheated in that relationship? Which is absolutely ridiculous because my parents have a joint Facebook account and they are the most in love people ever. But it's just kind of like this joke of like, somebody must have cheated that they have to be on the same account now. But at the same time, I hear what you're saying that if that's your way to build those bricks is you don't want to give up Facebook.

but you also don't want this person to have their own account because maybe that's how they met their affair partner or that's whatever. That might be a way to be able to continue forward as well.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (15:14.078)
Yeah, whatever helps and it's I Realized since I've become a couples therapist and doing infidelity in particular We never ever know What's going on? I hear very frequently people say if you asked any of our friends They would tell you that we have the best relationship

or no one would know, even our best friends have no idea that we're going through this. There is a lot of shame wrapped up in there. And it's something I also suggest that people, don't share this with friends. You can work with an individual therapist, you can share, we're having problems in our relationship. But the problem is that

if you share that we're going through this to, you know, your best friend, your best friend cares about you. They've got more interest at heart. All they hear is what they hear. There's not the foundation of love and history of your relationship. They're not in the therapy room seeing the work that's being done. And so if you do decide to stay together, it's hard to get your friend back on board because they're only seeing

Stephanie Zwonitzer (16:15.618)
Mm-hmm.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (16:36.914)
the side of protecting you. And so it can make it really difficult to do that. So it's always advised to work with an individual therapist or I do sometimes some individual work along with the couples just because I have all the context. Otherwise, if they're going to work with a different individual therapist, I recommend that me and that therapist have some kind of communication.

But yeah, it can be really hard because you don't, no one knows what any other relationship is like. And we all make assumptions and very often they're wrong. It's human nature to make assumptions, you know? And so sometimes I'll even like read an intake form and think, okay, I know what's going on here. But I never know until they come in and they tell me stuff. And even sometimes people, you know,

Stephanie Zwonitzer (17:06.862)
Sure.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (17:20.12)
Great.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (17:36.158)
I'm a stranger, even though I'm a therapist, you know, and so sometimes it'll take a few sessions before they share something kind of big and I'll say, you know, totally caught me off guard. so, and so it's yeah, it's just really, we have no clue what everyone else is going through and what, what they're doing, right? Are they trying to rebuild trust? And, know, was it, like you said, a gambling thing? Was it infidelity? You know, it can be.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (18:00.046)
Right.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (18:06.323)
Who knows?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (18:07.808)
Right, right. Yeah, it's so interesting. And I think, you you're right. If one of my girlfriends told me their husband or partner had cheated on them, I would be gung-ho for my girl and be like, screw him. He's bad news. Don't ever trust him again. Once a cheater, always a cheater. Like all the cliches that we could throw out there because she's my person.

and he's an additive, you know? So yeah, and then you think about like your family and yeah, if you're gonna work through this and bring them back to Christmas next year, you don't want everybody looking at them in a negative light either, especially if you both have done the work.

And depending on what led to that situation, maybe you were both sort of at fault of things in your relationship falling apart to get to that point. So it shouldn't always be pointing a finger at one individual.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (19:03.122)
Yeah, yeah, you know, usually it is like a symptom of a bigger problem. I always tell them like infidelity was the very worst way to get to, you know, like bring up this problem. yeah, it's not black and white. There is so much more context. And not only is it hard to kind of come back if you've told somebody because of how they feel about your partner.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (19:12.942)
Yes.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (19:31.198)
There can be so much shame involved with her partner. They can even say well now people know and Like I feel weak for getting back with you Like how am I going to explain to these people that I've chosen to stay with somebody who's hurt me so badly? So although it's really hard Because you know right away you're just looking for support You're just looking for someone to talk to and so

Stephanie Zwonitzer (19:56.791)
I'm

Kayla Crane, LMFT (20:00.934)
Ideally you find therapists right away that you can talk to about it. Just so you do have an outlet, because it's a lot to hold. And so it's just a huge ask to do that. But it also can be really detrimental to tell friends and family.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (20:21.56)
Sure. When I think about infidelity, you you think about the physical part of it, and that has to be very difficult to want to be intimate with someone who decided to go be intimate with someone else. And so how do you kind of start to heal that part? How do you start to be intimate again with someone that you're still kind of like, eek.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (20:50.897)
Yeah, it's, you know, one interesting thing about infidelity, it's very, very common right after discovery for the involved partner and the hurt partner to have so much sex. And so I hope people, like, I want people to hear that because every time they come in, they're like, this is gonna sound so bizarre, but we're having so much sex. So it's really, really normal for that to happen.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (21:07.79)
Hmm.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (21:21.233)
And later on though, once that kind of dies down, then it can be really difficult because people, you know, like I said, it's trauma to, you know, experience infidelity. And so you never know when like a flashback is going to happen or a memory. And I mean, that's a pretty clear trigger for most people, you know, there can also be other triggers like

it could be a street that they drove down when they know that the affair partner lives on or when they were told the discovery, they were in a specific room in their house and that's a trigger. But I mean, if they had sex with someone else, when you're trying to have sex with them, it can be really challenging. And so that kind of comes at their own pace whenever it kind of feels right. I also am trained in trauma therapy.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (21:58.69)
Yeah.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (22:20.169)
And so that's something that can really like kind of nicely pair with the treatment, especially towards the end when people have said, okay, I want to stay with my partner. I love them. And I just can't get this like image out of my head or this thought out of my head. I can do like some what we call desensitization and pretty quickly. What that does, all it does is kind of take the charge out of that memory.

You know, and so like I said, when I've had somebody who couldn't go, that's actually not uncommon. They can't go in a certain room in the house where they were told about it. And so we can just do that desensitization and that kind of like, that's a bummer that that happened, but it's not like giving me an emotional reaction. So that can kind of clear some of that up to make it easier, but it's just.

going at your own pace, what feels good for the involved partner to be completely patient, right, understanding this is part of the process.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (23:26.892)
Yeah. Does some people struggle with, well, maybe it was our lack of intimacy that led to this affair and now I don't want to touch this person. So is that going to lead to another affair in this healing frame?

Kayla Crane, LMFT (23:39.889)
Yeah, yeah, definitely that comes along with it because there is a lot of, like I said, a lot of shame and because of those beliefs as, you know, that kind of get hit with the discovery. So if you're saying, okay, this infidelity is just evidence that I'm not good enough, I need to be better. What have I done wrong here? And if they were getting sex from someone else, then I need to be able to do this. But...

then it kind of wraps into what we were just talking about, right? Like, I want to give my partner this thing that they're communicating they need that they weren't getting enough of, and it's really hard for me. So in those instances, especially if it's a male that engages in the physical infidelity, sex often usually equates for men to connection.

And so it's not just physical pleasure. And so if that's not discussed, people, even the man oftentimes is just looking for, I don't know what I'm looking for, but this is what I feel with my partner. I feel connected. And so sex feels good. And so maybe I'll feel connect, maybe it'll feel good with someone else. But when you recognize that it really is that emotional connection,

There are lots of ways that you can get that besides sex and to just while you're kind of going through that until you get to a place where it feels safe and you want to have sex, you're not doing it to because you don't want your partner to cheat again. But how can we get those needs met in other ways that do feel doable?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (25:29.292)
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And how about couples? Well, they just went and did it, so I'm going to do it too. I'm sure you get some of those and then they have to come through and now it's both sided and you got to work through the resentment and the double infidelity.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (25:38.865)
Yeah.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (25:47.537)
Yeah, strongly discouraged doing that. That makes it much trickier. I've actually seen it, that part not be the side that can be recovered, right? Like, okay, well, now I feel okay. It doesn't work. It doesn't make you, you know, that doesn't make you move past it. could, that's revenge, right? And so it could help with that. So finding another outlet.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (25:51.143)
You

Stephanie Zwonitzer (26:01.464)
Love you.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (26:06.733)
Great.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (26:17.39)
obviously to express that anger, that pain, that's what you're trying to express, right? It's like the pain, the anger. And so how else can you express that? a, you know, appropriate way in a therapy session, if you need to, you know, write a letter and give it to them, you know, communicating to them.

Like I said in a therapy session is good because it's controlled, but you can also share so much of that anger Which is all completely valid but yeah learning how to communicate that in a different way is You what would be more advised rather than?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (26:58.648)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (27:02.638)
I love the letter idea. I had a relationship that ended extremely suddenly. He completely disappeared. I got a text message in the middle of the night and I've never heard from him since. And I did not know at the time that it was because of infidelity. Things have come out since. But I was so...

left in the dark and so distraught with so many questions. And it wasn't until I worked with a therapist and she suggested writing a letter that I was truly able to like work through what I was actually struggling with. And, you know, being able to tell him in the letter the things that I never had the opportunity to say because he disappeared, it allowed me to let go of so much. And it's funny because he already had another girl pregnant by the time I was even

working through this. But to that end, like I felt so much better and I was able to reach forgiveness and I was able to get to a point of accepting myself and you know the various things in our relationship that you know when you're in you don't always necessarily look at right? And so going back without those rose-colored glasses and being like you know regardless of how this ended that person wasn't my person and that's okay and now

Kayla Crane, LMFT (27:54.812)
you

Stephanie Zwonitzer (28:23.468)
you know, having worked through that, having gotten my moment to like say everything to him, quote unquote, right, to him, because he never read the letter, I've never talked to him, threw it away, like it doesn't even exist anymore. But I got that opportunity to get it all out. And for me, that was so therapeutic. So I was really grateful that my therapist had suggested that. So I'm a huge proponent of the letter thing. I love that suggestion.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (28:47.258)
Yeah, and you know, so often the hurt partner will want to speak to like the the affair partner and they'll say I they just deserve to know or they want to call the affair partners husband or something like that, which again, strongly advised to not do because then you're just opening up more of this. And these people, we don't know what their intentions are. You know, we don't know if

the information they're going to provide is accurate, kind of all that stuff. But all the anger, that's all really valid. So it can also be helpful to write towards them. Like you said, throw it away when you're done. We don't actually give it to them. But yeah, I look at that. And similar to journaling, I really, really love journaling in the sense that it gives you the ability to kind of just step back.

And look, like I love to journal for everything. And just to sort out your thoughts a little bit and really step back and see, oh, OK, maybe this is more of an emotional reaction if I think it through. Maybe that's not what I want to do. Maybe I see things a little differently. I always add.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (29:46.99)
you

Kayla Crane, LMFT (30:07.869)
Encourage journaling and sometimes people don't want to because they'll say I don't want someone to read it or something like that. I tell them like rip it up when you're done, burn it, whatever it is. The way that I recommend journaling the purpose would be to just get it out of your head. Not necessarily to reflect back on if you don't want to. Just get it out, process it, and then be done with it.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (30:32.93)
Yeah, I like that as well. And it takes a little while to get good at it. You know, the first time you sit down, your brain's like, my gosh, do I write Dear Diary today? This is how it, you know, like if at first you feel like such an imposter syndrome, like I'm not a writer. Like, I don't know what to, but if you just start writing something, your brain starts to flow. And the more you do it, you'll sit down and all of sudden two pages are written and you're like, dang, I didn't even know I had that much to say today.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (30:41.872)
You

Kayla Crane, LMFT (31:01.562)
Yeah, and you know, sometimes when people will be like kind of, don't know, I tell them the same thing, put your pen on paper and see what comes out. Or I'll just even give them a notebook in a session and I'll set a timer for three minutes and I'll say, just write. And then usually they'll, wow, that was really, you know, like that was beneficial. And so you can even do that at home, right? Just set a timer and so.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:23.075)
Yeah.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (31:28.334)
it kind of gives it a little structure. Let me just see what happens in three minutes. And you can kind of just get a taste of it. Usually.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:36.704)
I used to even just start doodling and my thoughts and then eventually my thoughts I'd be like, I want to write about that. then, you know, so it was like, I was so disorganized when I even sat down that just kind of like doodling and letting my thoughts start, then I could actually write. That kind of helped me at the beginning too.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (31:54.524)
Yeah, and you know, art therapy is a thing. And so sometimes, you know, I will tell people, even my daughter's nine, but especially when she was younger, I always encouraged like journaling for her as well. And, you know, I would tell her just draw before she could like spell or, you know, I would say just draw how you're feeling. And so that can open anything to just like let those thoughts kind of out in some way because it

it really can get confusing in there, you know.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (32:27.126)
Yeah, yeah. One thing I did with my kids when they were little, and I'm just sitting here and listening to you talk about how people can reconnect. I had a journal with my kids and it was, you would write in it, either I wrote to them or they wrote to me, and you'd leave it on the other person's pillow. So then they got to it whenever they got to it and they'd respond and put it back on your pillow. And so it took out that...

personal like I'm saying this to your face kind of thing. So I wanted my kids to always have a way to say like, I have a question about this and I don't know how to say it. I'm embarrassed, but I want to ask this question, something like that. And I'm just sitting here like thinking about you're, you know, starting these conversations and talking to your partner. And if something's really difficult for you to say to their face, you know, maybe you can write a letter and they can read it and respond, you know, obviously not tearing them down and things like that, like a productive letter that says, hey, I'm just really

struggling with how to say this to your face, but this is what I'm thinking and feeling and I really need to talk about it but I needed to write it down first or something like that. I found that to be really helpful.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (33:30.703)
Yeah, you know, I also just personally, I'm a very reactive person. and so, you know, when my husband and I have a fight or something like that, before we talk about it, I try to journal first. If I don't, I can see a lot of it like overwhelming him. He's very different than me. And so I'm just like kind of dumping things and

Stephanie Zwonitzer (33:47.886)
Mmm.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (33:57.434)
Maybe not very nice. Also my own interpretations, like all of that. And it's kind of the point gets lost. And so if I journal first, I feel like that's kind of like clearing it out. And then I can have like a good, you know, regulated conversation because I've really like taken away the noise of it, you know, which is all valid. And so it is really hard to just don't think about this, you know? And so even if

Stephanie Zwonitzer (34:06.37)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (34:20.236)
Yeah. Sure.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (34:27.001)
You know, I am a big advocate. Sometimes people say, texting isn't so personal or writing. And I agree. but also sometimes it's too big of an ask when people have, they're just not there yet. and so if this is a way that allows you to say something that feels too vulnerable to say in person, like that's a good starting spot. We can build off of that, but.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (34:42.627)
Yeah.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (34:54.779)
If that makes it more accessible and it's either do nothing or communicate through a text or an email or a letter, let's start there, you know?

Stephanie Zwonitzer (35:04.482)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what are some more tips on regaining the physical intimacy? Do you suggest they start small, hand holding, kissing, making out, of restarting like you're dating? Do you suggest they just like go away for a weekend? How do they gain that intimacy back?

Kayla Crane, LMFT (35:25.263)
Yeah, think what a great starting spot is to just, and again, you've gotta take it at the hurt partner's pace. And so they might want to have sex or even hold your hand or something and then out of nowhere say, I don't want this, I don't want this. And so it's always on them to be able to kind of control that. But it can be really helpful to just be touching as much as possible and it doesn't have to be,

It doesn't have to be romantic or anything, but just if you're watching TV together, sitting close enough that your legs are touching. Or if you're, you know, driving in the car together, like somehow just putting your hand on someone's leg or it, the more you touch, the more comfortable it gets. But yeah, and then there's some exercises. One is called Sensate Focus. That's a really great one.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (36:14.242)
Sure.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (36:21.983)
And with that, go through like every week or two weeks, you kind of go through a process. first, you touch non-sexually for five minutes each. And the entire time, you take sex off the table. And so there's like four or five steps. the first three or four steps, absolutely no sex. You're just touching your partner in a way that

you think they would like to be touched and they'll instruct you on ways that they would like to be touched. So that can be really helpful anytime there's been some kind of like disconnect sexually to get back to it in that way, even if that person, any kind of trauma, it's great like baby steps. And then I said, always going at the pace of the hurt partner.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:14.775)
Okay.

Yeah, that totally makes sense to me. And I think, you know, that's got to be difficult for the person who was unfaithful to be in the middle of something. And then all of sudden be like, okay. Cause you almost feel like you're paying for it again and again and again. And yet that's not totally the case, but kind of, and you just have to be okay with that. And like, I love that you said going with the hurt partner because they're the ones that are having the most trauma out of this.

Kayla Crane, LMFT (37:45.935)
Yeah, yeah, and that's kind of, you know, unfortunate. I don't love the term consequence, but it's like, you know, everyone hears about natural consequences and you've hurt somebody and this is like, imagine even, you know, it's like a physical wound. It takes slowly heals. It's not, you can't just turn that back on and you know, sex is literally probably the most.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:46.064)
Thanks.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:56.174)
Thank

Kayla Crane, LMFT (38:10.913)
you know, vulnerable thing that physically vulnerable thing that somebody can do and vulnerability, you're giving somebody an opportunity to hurt you. And so to give somebody that opportunity after they've already hurt you so deeply, it's a big ask. And so also, you know, it can be confusing because at the beginning they might want to have a lot of sex.

And then it might kind of, you know, that shock might wear off a little bit and then it comes more to the, like the vulnerable piece and let's connect again. And that can just be too scary at first and that kind of just comes with the territory. If you want to, you know, work through it, you've got to give your partner the space and the patience that whatever it takes and it's different for everyone.

no one's doing it wrong, you know, like if it's taking a really long time, that's just how your partner is working through it, you know.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (39:07.48)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (39:14.402)
What is something that if you start to notice that you are interested in someone else, talking to someone else, physically attracted in a way that you actually want to act on it, not just, that person's really good looking, how can you kind of safeguard yourself to say,

things might be going down a path here that I don't actually want to do. What should someone do to stop themselves from that path of going down the infidelity track?

Kayla Crane, LMFT (39:45.883)
What are you missing? What are you not getting in your relationship? Like, what am I looking for really reflecting on whatever you're, you know, you're interested in? What am I interested in here? And, you know, it might seem really black and white, but it's, there's probably more to it. And so again, like journaling can be helpful, obviously going to therapy and...

You don't have to know the answer, but you obviously are looking for something. And so you can find the answer, but that's kind of, think the big picture is what am I missing in my relationship? And also, you know, a tool just play the tape through, like what's this going to look like if I do engage in this? What is the, you know, how am I going to, am I gonna wanna get?

repair it with my partner. What's that going to look like? And so playing it through is really important. But obviously, if you're finding yourself doing that, removing the opportunity, right? If you happen to be somebody who travels at work and every time you travel, you

Stephanie Zwonitzer (41:02.286)
you

Kayla Crane, LMFT (41:09.348)
go down to the bar and you drink and you end up talking to people and put yourself in a vulnerable situation, stop doing that. know, like those are important things to, it's not always the case if somebody's going to cheat, they're going to cheat, which a lot of people think that's the case. Sometimes it's an opportunity that they have that they just are in a really bad situation. So if you're even having any considerations, try to take away any,

Stephanie Zwonitzer (41:25.898)
Thank

Kayla Crane, LMFT (41:38.168)
like temptations as much as possible, obviously. There's still the real world, but try and do that. And also like really reflect, what am I missing here? Read relationship books. Like I said, if you can talk to a therapist, go to like online support groups, whatever it is, figure out what you're really looking for.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (42:01.004)
Yeah, I love that. That's such great advice. This has been such a fascinating topic. think it touches all of us in some way or another, whether it's not your own relationship, it's somebody you know. So this is a really great topic to talk through. I appreciate you being here. How can people be in touch with you, follow you, learn more about you?

Kayla Crane, LMFT (42:17.336)
Yeah, my website is just South Denver Therapy dot com and I can also be found on Instagram and Facebook, just South Denver Therapy.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (42:27.776)
Awesome. We will put that in the show notes as well. And thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Everybody have a great week. Don't forget to check out reviveish.com for all your hormone and sexual health needs where you can work with me. And of course, go have some fun between the sheets.